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Post by tech4 on Apr 27, 2011 18:08:01 GMT -5
This has probably been posted before but thought I would repeat it. Anybody agree?
A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best!
Here's the summary of the test results:
Penetrating oil ..... Average load
None ...................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .............. 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............. 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds
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Post by garystewart on Apr 27, 2011 20:09:52 GMT -5
The ATF-Acetone mix get high marks on the Model A Ford site. Usually suggested for pouring down the cylinders of old rusty engines.
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Post by markkw on Apr 28, 2011 5:22:54 GMT -5
{T4 - be advised, this reply is not directed at you - it's intended as an "in general" response to the topic.} I am simply amazed at how many times this bull crap rolls around and around the web to keep surfacing with new enthusiasm every time simply because people like me are reluctant to counter the bull with fact.  First things first, acetone is polar and will NOT mix with ATF! The best you can achieve is an emulsion IF and only IF you agitate it with enough velocity and force while injecting a gas like air as an emulsion binder and then you're emulsion is good for just a few seconds before the gas vents and the emulsion is lost. Perhaps I shouldn't point out the fact that acetone is used as a DEGREASING SOLVENT because it promotes the release of the molecular bonding that is the very basis of why lubricants work! So, explain to me why one would sanction the mixing of two materials that produce completely opposite results of each other? Second, this has been going around for four years now and STILL there is no one pointing to the admission by the author that the test was not only bogus from a scientific standpoint but he mixed either ATF or P/S Fluid with 1,1,1-trichloroethane (a/k/a methyl chloroform) which is a pretty nasty CNS depressant. In addition to the lack of testing the products being claimed, the control was not established to the point of consistency since the amount of corrosion binding was not established to a set point before conducting the test. Any " scientist" presenting such ignorant banter would be openly laughed at as if he/she was a stand-up comic! (There's been no clarification on whether it was in fact ATF or P/S Fluid (I didn't see the article but there's plenty who agree that the accompanying picture shows P/S Fluid and not ATF - given the lie about the solvent used, one can easily dismiss the rest without worry of criticism. This kind of bull crap does almost as much damage to the reputation of quality products and serious scientific testing as obama & company do to the country.  This ranks right up with internet hype associated with Ed's Red ... any idea how guns have fallen victim to Ed's Red? Burst barrels, FTF's, AD's, melted sights, leaking scopes, blistered/dissolved stock finishes.... You don't see people posting pictures all over the internet bragging about how they buggered up their gun using some kind of worthless crap they mixed up in their kitchen. Ranks right up there with the morons bragging about using Ospho to blacken their gun parts yet not showing pictures and hospital bills when it blows up in their face because while they were all wrapped up reading about some home witch's brew, they failed to understand that phosphoric acid destroys the structural integrity of most pressure-rated alloys. There's a host of items one can use in a pinch like straight kerosene or diesel fuel but they're nowhere near as effective as products that are specially blended for the given application and there is no one-size-fits-all product that is equally effective on all applications. One must get past the hype before going anywhere, prime example of sales hype is PB Blaster in a polystyrene foam (styrofoam) cup - the "catalyst action" is merely the solvent portion of the mixture where most any other solvent in the same category will produce the same melted polystyrene foam which is only useful if you're trying to free a stuck fastener from a piece of polystyrene foam because it means absolutely nothing in relation to it's ability to penetrate corrosion! If you're a fan of the polystyrene cup demonstration, put a little gasoline in a polystyrene foam cup and see what happens. This sales hype ranks right up there with the alleged "professional" (I use that term loosely) gunmaker who claims to "boil his own linseed oil" and brags about how he "boils" it until the color darkens to a rich honey brown ... unfortunately Mr. Moron gunmaker doesn't seem to grasp the concept that while he's busy pushing sales hype, scientific fact has long ago since proven that the boil and self-ignition points of linseed oil are the exact same temperature! Far be it from me to be bashful about pointing out that it's kinda hard to boil a fireball "for hours". I've been working on getting a new 100% synthetic gun & instrument oil to market that has a structure capable of producing excellent creep (penetration). I can assure you, there is a vast difference in the molecule sizes of lubricants and ATF molecules are quite large in relation to many others so just based on it's actual properties, it's not a very good choice for a penetrating lubricant to begin with - why does ATF get a lot of undeserved glory? Simply because it's cheap crap any schmuck can get at Wally World or the auto parts store. I suppose I also shouldn't point out the fact that ATF is has a relatively low high pressure shear modulus which means it's not a very good lubricant to begin with ... also, ATF is a detergent oil to promote the suspension of contaminants so they can be more easily extracted by common media filtering processes - one must understand that detergent components make for very poor wetting properties of the oil and wetting is the primary function of a penetrating oil. Furthermore, there are all-natural alternatives that are non/low toxic and work far better than the common petrochemical penetrating and cutting lubricants. |
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Post by franz on Apr 28, 2011 12:08:36 GMT -5
Well DAMN Mark that was one hell of a roll you fired off there, BUT I gotta argue with a thing you said about phosphoric acid. You and I both know what parkerizing is and what the ingredients in that tank are. My contention would be phosphoric does not attack or harm steel in good condition. Phosphoric does and will attack iron oxide, and do nothing to good steel. I've used a few barrels of phosphoric over time and never seen a failure attributable to it.
Honestly I once had hope the Internet was going to be valuable as a way to move information and share ideas, but today my impression is different. We live among too many sheep, and sheep cannot exchange ideas, only follow the leader. The Internet sheep are scared to be nipped by the herding dog so they have their moderator sheep vote anyone with a new idea off the island. I've wearied of that shit to the extent I no longer share much information. After all I did it differently and got better results, so obviously I'm nuts or a radical.
I've sat looking at screens full of bullshit about electroplating rust off an object causing hydrogen embrittlement. I have yet to see any of the spewers explain HOW. Their followers all agree though completely ignoring that the object was thoroughly rotted by rust and brittle before it went into the tank. I spent a lot of time withthe process and have my tank running around the clock without stopping to clean electrodes, and spent more time on filtration so my electrolyte remains clear and the suspended iron gets filtered out. Naw, I don't know WTF I'm doing, so I just keep my mouth shut.
Mankind and more particularly the mechanics among mankind seems to have gotten a bit sidetracked and fascinated with miracle compounds over the last 50 years, hooked on the new is good so newer has to be better Madison Ave crapola. It comes in a spray can and has secret ingredient XM342 became the bible. Old ways were set aside for the new improved spray can. Oddly among the latest miracles in a can are corrosion inhibiting compounds. For those who take the time to read the MSDS all you need to know is right there, Lanolin, Mineral Oil and Mineral Spirits. DOH, men have been using lanolin compounds to retard corrosion for how many years? It penetrates, it lubricates and it's CHEAP. Best of all, you can make it at home CHEAP. BUT, you better not mention it on the Internet or you get voted off the island.
Marvelous concept voting people off the island is, the group looses intelligence, but the group is happy.
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Post by tech4 on Apr 28, 2011 19:34:46 GMT -5
Hey this sounds like the old board - finally got a good one going. Maybe we can get the Craftsman Vs Snap On again  On a serious side I have often wondered if Marvel Mystery Oil was just ATF? |
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Post by franz on Apr 28, 2011 23:02:47 GMT -5
MMO definitely ain't ATF, MMO was around before ATF.
High probability is a compound of white mineral oil, mineral spirits and oil of wintergreen.
Snatch On the tools favored by Lesbians around the world ain't worth a damn any more, even the Lesbos are complaining about warranty coverage on snap corrosion. Damn diaper trucks full of chrome operated by a slimebag with an attitude ought to be weighed by DOT scales more often and get them off the roads.
Crapsman can kiss my ass. I ordered a load of stuff from them at Christmas and the bastards cancelled the order after they confirmed it. Only damn reason I'll go to Sears is to piss in the fitting room.
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Post by markkw on Apr 29, 2011 7:33:47 GMT -5
Parkerizing is done with zinc phosphate or manganese phosphate solutions which are primarily phosphate salts and not phosphoric acid. There's all kinds of warnings concerning the exposure of high-strength steel alloys, particularly those used in pressure vessels, to phosphoric acid - well documented by ASTM, SAE, BES, GMEC, and many others.
MMO is primarily comprised of mineral spirits, napthenic hydrocarbons and chlorinated hydrocarbons - if anyone requests, I'll expand on that further.
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Post by franz on Apr 29, 2011 12:17:54 GMT -5
E X P A N D already!
I'll continue to use phosphoric acid. 40+ years of experience says it works and solves problems like keeping paint on steel. I stopped trusting people in lab coats long ago.
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Post by markkw on Apr 30, 2011 9:27:42 GMT -5
Geeze Franz, did you up your caffine intake today or what? LOL
Phos-A is fully acceptable to use on "most" things without any issue, the specific problem arises with high-strength alloys, steel that is work-hardened by cold-forming/forging, the fillet and/or HAZ of weldments and of course brass-brazed joints and any alloy containing metals that are highly susceptible to acid attack. Other than that, there are certain issues that arise from general purpose use where the intent of the reaction is to create iron oxide from iron corrosion where microfracturing of the surface may be detrimental to post-treatment topical coatings that do not have sufficient flexibility to ensure maintaining a positive environmental encapsulation layer.
Being that MMO is primarily solvents, it's a known seal-killer and I don't mean there's a little Scandinavian with a club hiding in the can waiting for a seal to come by. Most rubber seals and rubberized cork are made with buna rubber and buna is nowhere near as tolerant of solvents as viton rubber. It is commonly known that prolonged or repeated solvent exposure destroys common seal material and is why knowledgeable mechanics will avoid MMO, Sea Foam and other snake oil products with a high-solvent content like the plauge - except in certain circumstances/applications where the high solvent content is intentionally desired.
Anyone in the plumbing/machining fields knows that any lubricant with a high chlorinated halogen content makes for a great cutting oil. On the flip side, anyone in the lubrication field knows that a high chlorinated halogen content means poor lubrication properties in the sense of reducing friction – a two-edge sword in a sense as the high CH content aids in extreme pressure but is detrimental in creating the film barrier desired for non-cutting applications.
It's been rumored that MMO contains a small amount of natural oil of wintergreen which tends to be the case for the original formula but doesn't appear to be so in more modern times where synthetic OoW is dominant. About 98% of natural oil of wintergreen is methyl salicylate. Although methyl salicylate is the primary component, it is not present until the leaves are macerated with hot water or steam and the enzymatic action from a glycoside within the leaves does it's thing. OoW is a decent penetrating oil by itself but it also comes with drawbacks. Methyl salicylate is an ester that creates an exothermic reaction when coming in contact with acids and subsequently forms alcohols and other acids. OoW, including synthetic OoW, is a caustic reactive and stand-alone corrosive and as such adding it to an environment like an engine crankcase where contaminants and combustion byproducts result in turning lesser quality primary lubricants acidic is compounding the corrosive effects. Even if the primary lubricant retains a neutral Ph, the high CH content is detrimental to the desired lubrication function of the primary lubricant. Scuttlebutt claims that MMO was used during WWII as a fuel additive but I have yet to find any reliable documentation to support the claims – however, there is documentation suggesting a mixture of light oil and stoddard solvent was added to gasoline systems before short-term storage/non-use, aside from that, I’ve not found anything definitive.
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Post by franz on Apr 30, 2011 11:22:40 GMT -5
Still on the first mug of cafinated chicory enhanced fuel so I'll type real slow Mark. Hell you were a lot more fun when ya were just a dumb ol mine knuckle buster in Pennsyltucky. Now that ya have that new computer with all the 7 dollar words yer beginning to act like one of the experts who burns 7018 on everything cause engineers call it out a lot.
Phosphoric has been very good to me over the years, generally between 4 & 6% concentration, then again I'm smart enough to know what full wetting means unlike all the dipsticks who throw dollars at Eastwood and Locktite.
I've never looked to phosphoric for derusting, far better methods exist such as chelation and electroplating the rust off. I spent years perfecting the electroplating process to the extent I can run the tank around the clock and maintain a perfectly clear electrolyte. Oh wait. I can't because 380256 Internet experts say I can't. Fuggem I'm doing it, and it don't cause hydrogen embrittlement either. Texas A&M can eat my shorts, I did it and they can't.
As to the MMO being used in fuel back in the 40s & 50s your old neighbor my ABE area wiff's high speed driving instructor, was touting Bardahl as I recall. Others were touting MMO and STP. I get a good laugh every time I read a post about lead free gas not working well in old engines because I well recall people who drove 20 miles to buy lead free American or AMOCO gas back then.
We live in a strange time blessed by ExSpirts who googled the information up. Sadly they were born in 1970 or 1980 and haven't got a damn clue. I've wearied of correcting them.
Cutting fluid, the absolute best was invented and manufactured by Harold Silloway in Hilton NY, Monroe Cool Tool. Combination of mineral oil, Sperm Oil and Trichlor. Harold concocted many good products in his lab shack at the end of his runway before EPA and OSHA. Oh wait, that never happened either cause it ain't on google.
Now since we never dare go off subject on this board cause the Mean Moderator will slap our fingers one of us ought to start a thread on the marvelous BUNA rubber and how Ol Joe Kennedy showed his friends how to invent it for a cheap 7 million US Dollars back in the 40s. Not sure if that happened or not, haven't googled it.
Where can I get a small quantity of that artificial wintergreen smell? I can add it to my Buzzardshield concentrate and sell it on eBay. Seems to be the way to make money in the time when you can't give people intelligent information.
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Post by tech4 on Apr 30, 2011 20:27:08 GMT -5
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Post by markkw on May 1, 2011 0:27:34 GMT -5
Uh Franz, you haven't had quite enough go-juice yet ... rust removal would be "electrolysis" not "electroplating"  Scientifically Treated Petroleum (STP) didn't come about until 1953 and if you'll recall, they eventually paid over $1.3 million in fines for false advertising. Zinc is primary active STP ingredient just as it was in the various "instead of lead", "lead replacer", "No-lead lead replacer" and other such snake oil products popular throughout the 70's & 80's ... consumer ignorance was to blame for the zinc doing more harm than good. Those in know were the ones adding a bit of the good ole high-sulfur C-C oil to the fuel. While I'm at it, why not hammer on the PTFE (Teflon®) Slick50 & Fram kick of the 90's ... as if loading an engine with zinc wasn't bad enough, why not plug it with plastic? That's right up there with those who bought the sales hype on the moly-coated bullets and wound up with wrecked barrels. |
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Post by franz on May 1, 2011 21:41:50 GMT -5
Alas mine car destroyer you have fallen into my trap!
"rust removal would be "electrolysis" not "electroplating" "
The only damn electrolysis occurring in a rust removal tank is the water of the electrolyte. The rust is being electroplated off the rusty object and onto the collecting electrode, and that Mr Keystone ironpounder is ELECTROPLATING!
Of course when you been doing it as long as I have, and most of the populattion doesn't remember rechroming bumpers it's easy to confugle them. BTW, I don't even let my tank bother plating the rust onto an electrode, I just use graphite electrodes and let the rust drop to the bottom of the tank, unless I filter the iron out of the solution.
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Post by markkw on May 2, 2011 10:58:34 GMT -5
Touche! LOL
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Post by nutrivet on May 2, 2011 14:37:14 GMT -5
By the way. You are so far beyond what most know about this stuff, this is useful from all the angles. i think that submersing is huge factor of course and then hastening transfer electrically then sacrificial anode another and current and it is craft. The air dry ways are PB Blaster, Kroil, SiliKroil to me anyway. They don't all work the same at the same temps is why there are varying reports. Another is that there are various types of tight fasteners and they may only penetrate so far. The next step is heat. Some sizzle and are doing some work in there and some burst to flame.
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WOW! I don't want to ask you two what time it is because you will tell me how to build a clock 
