Sealing Entrance Hole For Main Water Line

[todd]

Hey lads, I have a friend with a bit of a problem. His parent's home has developed a leak in the basement where the main water line enters the premises. This a modern construction home in great shape. Probably built in the late seventies. It is a 3/4 inch copper line coming through a black plastic sleeve of about 1-1/2" diameter. He noticed ground water on the floor and quickly figured out where it was coming from. He tried pure silicone and of course the water just poured through it after awhile. I went over to look at it and could tell it was not close to thirty years old. He confirmed the main water line was replaced about ten years ago and it looks to me like they use some sort of white latex caulk to seal the gap around the line. I cleaned out his goobered up mess (inside, not dug down from the outside) as best I could and repacked it with hydraulic cement. I was a bit unsure of using it around bare copper but a call to a couple of plumber acquaintances confirmed this is their fix short of digging out around the outer wall and doing the whole thing from outside to inside. Usually with the same hydraulic cement. Well it worked but only for awhile. It did seep a bit where the cement met the copper. One thing that worried me was the angle of the copper line through the sleeve. It was not straight but runs up at an angle. I had to have him put downward pressure on the line so as to allow just a smidgen of room to pack some of the cement on top of the line. I was and still am dubious of the amount of material I was able to get on the top of the water line.

So this brings us to where? Should I chisel out the material and start again? Is there a better product or way to do this? I would really love something that went in as a paste and would surround the line and form an essentially water tight seal. I don't know what product is made for this. Also, with the hydraulic cement harm the copper line? It dd not mention it on the package but who knows? This poor guy is really pulling his hair out when it rains so any ideas are more than welcome.

Todd

[sselander]

check out this article from the copper.org website - towards the bottom.

www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/prevent_corrosion_cu_tube_buried.html

They recommend electrician's duct seal, instead of cement to allow for expansion/contraction of the pipe.

[tech4]

Hello Todd, good to hear from you again. First of all I am the worlds worst plumber. Are you sure the water is a leak from the rain and not a leak in the pipe? If it is from the rain I would start by controlling the water run off above ground. I had a similar problem some years ago and I placed plastic over the spot as to drain off the rain water and no problem since. I don't like cement around the pipe as I have had two neighbors that had pipes shear against the foundation wall with movement over the years.
I noticed the good plumbers around here make the hole larger than the pipe and then wrap with a rubber tape until they get a tight fit. I would agree that some type of rubber seal would be the best but I would sure take a close look above ground and see where the source of the water is coming from.

[markkw]

Okay, here's one where the old timers method will work better than any new fangled stuff if the leak is from ground water. I agree with T4 though, make sure it's ground water and not the water pipe itself that's leaking.

First, get rid of the ABS tube around the copper, you need to get back into the hole as far as you can but at least about 2" - this working from the inside of the wall. Clean up the cement, remove all the dust, chips, ect.

Oakum is still the best flexible sealant material you can get. I've tried all the foams and hi-tech this, that and the other thing and nothing holds up as good oakum. In the sub-grade area of waste oil facility the concrete joints were caulked with a special polyurethane that was insanely expensive. It lasted about two months before it would allow water seepage and 6-7 months when it started peeling out in long strips. I packed all the joints with oakum and capped them with a cheap polyurethane to satisfy the EPA spec's - eight years later, still going strong!

I had a similar problem in the basement of my shop in PA, the builder missed a few form wood separators when pouring the concrete making for several nice 1.5" square holes through the wall where the wood used to be. Of course, the blithering idiot who built the place pitched the exterior ground toward the building, didn't bother putting any french drain in and just had the gutter downspouts dumping straight onto the ground against the walls. In the spring of the year I moved in was heavy snow melt combined with several days of rain. The basement looked like a sprinkling can with water pouring in through those holes. I used a hook and screwdriver to dig out what little remained of the wood and started packing with oakum. Stopped the water coming in completely, never put anything else on it, nine years later it was still holding just fine. If you want a longer duty example, the joints around penetrations in a brick underground utility tunnel built in the 1940's in an area of PA where the groundwater level was frequenty >48" above the lower penetrations. The tunnel contained sanitary, water, electric and steam lines connecting two buildings owned by the same company. In the early 1960's they sold one building, the utility lines were cut and the tunnel openings bricked closed. In 1997 both buildings were purchased by a new company, when I opened the tunnel I found all the original utilities were just cut off enough to allow for the brick closure to be laid. Tunnel was wet, about 18" of standing water in the bottom but once drained and dried, it was evident that the oakum seals were still holding just fine. Matter of fact, the original terracotta soil pipe running through that tunnel had oakum packed joints and we ended up using that existing pipe since it was still in perfect condition.

You won't get oakum at China Blue or China Orange (Lowe's/Home Depot) you need to get it from a local independent, Ace Hardware or professional plumbing supply.

If the concrete and/or surrounding soil has a high lime or calcium content usually indicated by the growth of white powder/flakes/crystals on the concrete when it's perfectly dry or a kind of slimy layer or feel when it's wet, nothing but oakum will work because everything else will not seal against the concrete and if it does, it won't last long as the leaching minerals will break the seal in short order.

When you pack oakum, you gotta PACK it! Make yourself an assortment of hardwood packing tools, Hickory, Pecan or similar dense hardwood is best, thin layers making sure you get it tight before adding more.

[franz]

First thing is get rid of the concrete in contact with the copper unless you want the copper eaten. Just ask the geniuses who tried copper in concrete floor for heat before PEX came out.

If the soil is sand you can do all the excivating you need to with a shopvac. If not a little digging may be necessary.

Sodium Bentonate is your best friend for basement leaks, same stuff we use to line horizontal bores. It's not your best friend if you are my neighbor who relocated his sump pump discharge to the property line of my field.

Bentonate swells when it meets water, and seals against the water. You can poke holes in a styrofoam cup with a Bic and then fill the cup half way with Bentonate and add water. Within 1 minute the water will stop running out of the cup.

Fill the shield tube with Bentonate and shove as much as possible thru the tube into the soil surrounding the entrance. It will seal the tube. Also fill the coreholes on both sides of the tube for a complete job.

[Noel]

Franz, does this material offer any flexibility to allow for shifting soil or foundation? If the copper pipe has been in the ground long very long, there will be some thinning of the pipe walls making the flexibility a must to minimize the potential for pipe damage.

[franz]

Bentonatw is far more flexible than concrete.
By now there must be a million miles of underground cable rncased in bentonate in horizontal bores, and they don't seem to be getting damaged near as much as cable that was plowed in or conventionally trenched and backfilled.

[art]

Think of bentonite as a thick pudding. It may get a crust on top, but underneath it will still be a thick gel.

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