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Post by markkw on Jun 19, 2010 12:58:35 GMT -5
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Post by jerrybowers on Jun 19, 2010 19:37:03 GMT -5
Welcome to the modern U.S., where anyone with a computer is an instant expert in everything.
I recently submitted a written proposal to a company to do some re-design work on a highly specialized precision motion control system. In the proposal, I listed a number of specific design questions that would be addressed in the project. During my presentation, the ~20 something year old project manager / engineer who would nominally be in charge of the project tapped a few times on his computer and said he got 136,000 answers (via Google) to a specific point in the proposal, and that with that much information available, his company would not be needing my services. They assumedly would just use the list I provided (for free!) in my proposal, and get the solutions off the internet.
I pointed out that approach would still need someone to determine which of the 136,000 internet solutions would work and ultimately which was the best for their machines. The project engineer said I was just trying to confuse them into giving me a contract.
Need less to say, I will not be working for those guys, as they already have all the answers.
Jerry
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Post by markkw on Jun 19, 2010 20:20:30 GMT -5
Jerry,
I know the feeling, when we first got down here in FL I did a spec sheet for a custom curb digging machine. The SOB's took my "free" spec sheet and went about it themselves! Anymore I'm of the opinion that they'll pay a consultation fee plus any additional as required for whatever work I do including spec sheets! If they want a proposal, I'll give 'em one but it's definitely going to be devoid of any technical info they can google.
The last place I worked full-time, back in the early 90's, the first shift foreman was a Marine who insisted on having a passdown log. Things got shaken up in management and they put an utter nit wit in charge of maintenance, he knew nothing about nothing but thought he knew everything because he read the passdown log. I figured out what he was doing the first day and went into my self preservation mode. All I would write in the passdown was stuff like this:
"02:30 Line five broke. 03:00 Line five fixed." "04:45 Primary coolant pump broke. 06:00 Primary coolant pump fixed."
Then he would grill me in the meeting but I never caved in, most he got for answers from me was "broke" and "fixed". Then there was the issue with the illegal union vote and the new plant manager, didn't take long until I had enough of the crap from one end to the other. My shift started at 19:00, I strolled through the door around 22:30 with coffee in hand, chased the material handler off the fork truck, loaded my toolbox up and as I was walking back out the door after giving the fork truck back, the night shift foreman said, "What am I supposed to tell Joe (new plant manager) in the morning?" I said, "Ask him what part of go f--- yourself don't you understand?" The foreman was rolling because I knew was chomping at the bit to deliver that statement in the morning meeting.
That job didn't matter to me anyway, I already had my custom machinery business going and had been doing contract for their competition for more than three months. Just my luck though, I went out and bought a bunch of equipment and supplies on credit and the clinton economy kicked in bringing the mfg plants pretty much to screeching halt. Times were tough for the next three years and having a guy screw me for $28k really didn't help matters any. Nonetheless, those who said I was "crazy" and the other welding/fab shops that said I would never make it ... well when the dust settled, out of the 18 fab shops that were around the area when I hung my shingle out, there were only two left, mine and a friend's shop who I worked with all the time. Other shops came and went afterward too and I always had a waiting list.
I know one thing, if I had the money to train and outfit two people willing to learn and work that wanted to be making big money within a few years, even in this economy I'd have at least half a dozen new trainees within a year just doing residential service and I gurantee it would be just like my machinery business, I wouldn't have to spend a penny buying ads.
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Post by franz on Jun 20, 2010 2:50:30 GMT -5
Well now Mark, I'm no Floridummy expert, but I can damn sure tell you a lot of 15kw LPG machines will not operate long on a tank smaller than 250 gallon, and 500 is better because you can run a liquid line from a 500.
I have run into multiple GeneCRAP installs that were set up in summer and won't even start in winter here due to lack of vaporization in the tank, and the fact the machines run on tank vapor rather than liquid. Hell, you loose 1/3 of the vaporizing capacity when the tank drops from 60° to 40°f ambient.
Proposals, I wrote enough of those to bind into a 20 volume set of Encyclopedias. In 82 I wrote one for the County Zoo for a complete alarm system based on their RFQ. Sunzabyches took my proposal and lined out my name, and the parts they decided they could live without, with aMagic Marker and copied it for a bidding specification for the job. They didn't even send me a bid request so I wouldn't know what they did. Fortunately one of my compeditors did.
3 years later and a pocket full of lawyer money I received compensation for my stolen specifications. I came away short, but the word damn well went out in this area I was not to be screwed with.
After I learned what the Zoo had done every page of every document I generated bore the © and a statement saying all information contained in said document was mine and mine alone. I also bought paper with a diagonal light blue Property of Company Name preprinted on it. It became quite famous in the area. I was competing against jerkoffs who did a single page NEBS form with a ballpoint, and since I had a computer to do the work, generating 20 page proposals. The NEBS guys rarely took any job I wanted.
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Post by markkw on Jun 20, 2010 8:59:03 GMT -5
Franz,
I think the confusion comes in between "gallons" and "pounds". In other-than-bulk storage tanks, LPG metering is most commonly in "pounds". Thus, a 100# cylinder contains roughly 23 gallons of liquid (4.2#/gal @ 60°F). A 250# tank would hold 59 gallons and a 500 gallon tank would be 2,100 pounds. The vapor volume verses the liquid level in tanks is roughly 2.5:1 vapor to liquid. (My figures are "rough" because it's been a long time since I had to figure any of this stuff out accurately)
The engine required for a full-use 15kw generator is roughly 30-35 horse power, a typical 100# LPG tank is more than capable of running up to an 190Hp engine with a tank vapor supply before boil-off and regulator freeze-up become issues depending on the operating environment. Here in FL, the biggest problem with LPG is regulator freeze-up, not boil-off. Air temps are normally plenty high enough for more than sufficient boil-off but the humidity level causes condensation and icing in the regulator and thus a heated regulator is required. In northern climate, regulator freeze-up is rare but insufficient boil-off is quite common because of the low ambient temps especially in winter which is why it is often better to manifold two to four 250 pound tanks to allow for sufficient boil-off in a residential application where the LPG is running the heat, hot water & cooking applications.
I don't know about the genercrap gensets but the better quality units have a regulator heater built-in, some are tied to the engine coolant, others are electric which eliminates issues with freeze-up. Again, just rough figuring, at full-load, a 15kw genset will likely consume about 1.2 gallons per hour, at 50% load that drops to about 0.5 gallon per hour so even running a vapor line, 1/4" tube is way more than sufficient to run that little engine because the line itself should be running high-pressure gas to the onboard regulator, if not a tank-mounted regulator would still supply more than enough fuel provided the regulator did not freeze-up. The 52Hp Nissan engines come (or at least did come) pre-plumbed for 8mm vapor supply line.
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Post by bob on Jun 20, 2010 16:29:42 GMT -5
Mark, For installing a 500 gallon LP tank in CT isn't hard to do. I bought one for a whopping $53 a couple years ago. The only thing needed was to make sure I met the the minimum feet required, such as 10 feet from a building, such as my house. Using the tank only to supply a tankless hot water heater, I can go about a year between fill-ups. Plus, I can shop around because I own the tank and also get the bulk delivery charge, which is quite a bit cheaper. So 500 gallon is really the way to go, if you have the space.
I don't think 1/4" tubing is big enough. For my hot water heater, the spec is 5/8" copper tubing to the house, and minimum 1/2 black iron to the heater. I have a 35K ventless heater in the basement that needed 3/8 min. If I remember even gas stoves require 1/2 pipe to the flex pipe.
bob
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Post by franz on Jun 21, 2010 1:33:28 GMT -5
Before the crash I had all the damn charts on this puter, but I haven't really been worried much since the crash about restoring them since I barely use them any more.
I went to a 500 gal tank after fighting the Level Propane Wars and I own the tank. 40+ years of buyng propane have taught me it is an insane business, and the only way to come out close to even as a customer is to own your own tank.
The propane industry considers 10% volume loss annually acceptable, and since the customer pays for what is pumped off the bobtail they don't care about customer losses. I check mine with soapwater annually.
The majority of GeneCRAP machines run from the vapor side of the tank, and are rarely installed with primary/secondary regulators. In NY you can count on at least half of the machines getting installed in Summer and failing to operate when winter comes for want of vapor boiloff. That 1/3 loss of boiloff between 60 and 40° will cause the machine to start, run less than a minute and shut off for want of fuel.
I have a hunch we will see machines from Carrier and a couple other vendors display the same problem in time to come. The machine sellers don't have a clue about propane or how it operates within the tank or lines, they just sell units and leave town. GeneCRAP is definitely the bottom of the barrel and screws every customer they sell to.
When we have a repeat of the 91 storm here it is going to get very funny. The natural gas company knows their supply is limited fast without electric to pump the gas, and tells people wanting to install gensets they should have the company confirm supply. Since this also means a building permit, many customers think the vendor is doing them a favor by sidestepping the gas survey. Those customers will be very unhappy when the power goes off. Most of the machines I've seen already have the NG regulator humming when they run.
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Post by markkw on Jun 21, 2010 8:59:36 GMT -5
Bob,
FL is permit happy, getting almost as bad a taxachussetts! 500 gallon here mean obtaining a bulk storage permit which means underground with all the consumable cathodes and monitoring equipment or above ground with all the associated containment dikes and such.
Franz & Bob,
I found my book, the actual ID of the high pressure (tank pressure) supply line on the 37 hp mobil light units is 0.070" (just under 5/64" or just over 1/16" depending on how you want to look at it). They are supplied with a single 30# (7 gallon) cylinder and have a rated run time of 12 hours at full load of 16.2kw or 27 hours at 50% load. IIRC, home appliance lines run at 3 in H2O while low-pressure supplied engines are normally run at 20 in Hg.
I'm with you Franz on your summation of genercrap, just installed a gasoline powered RV unit in a pick-up for a client, what a POS! Genercrap sells it as being 120/240v 50amp, come to find out it's 120v only and 30amp and no, they won't stand behind it, not even for the cooling fan that was being ground apart because it was hitting the housing. If the belt goes, it requires an entire day to pull the unit out, then disassemble the entire unit because there's no other way to get to it not even for inspection!
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Post by franz on Jun 23, 2010 0:13:06 GMT -5
GeneCRAP is far worse than you know Mark. Just try getting parts! They wholesale overproduction units to box stores like Homo Desperate, and refuse warranty if the sucker er I mean buyer doesn't have the unit installed by a GeneCRAP licensed installer.
My first experience with them was back in 82 when the Cat dealer here sold a boatload to the Army Crotch of Enginutjobs for dam site replacements. We pulled out Onan and Kohler machines built in the 50s that mostly had less than 100 hours on their clocks and had to haul them away as part of the contract. Brought 3 home myself and they still all work.
The enginitwitt in charge of the project replaced all them obsolete machines because they didn't have remote start capability. The Crotch didn't want the Dam Operator having to walk to the machine with a flashlight to start it when necessary, so the new machines all had a switch to start and stop them on the Dam console.
On my last trip off the job I stopped to thank the enginitwitt. I had rigged one of the Kohlers with 2 doorbell buttons and 100' of extension cord. I had him push the button and watch the machine start and stop. His only comment was "who cares, its only tax money."
The GeneCRAP units have all been replaced because they locked up sitting there unused.
Thanks to the taxpayers I have 3 standby plants at the house.
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Post by markkw on Jun 25, 2010 6:20:17 GMT -5
Oh, I'm very familiar with genercrap ... I just had recent dealings with the company tech and authorized repair shop ... good way to waste a few hours if you've got nothing better to do like dig your eyeball out with a pencil eraser.
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Post by franz on Jun 25, 2010 12:43:52 GMT -5
Check your PMs Mark.
I sent you the solution.
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Post by todd on Jun 25, 2010 17:36:30 GMT -5
Hey guys, you are making me nervous with this Genercrap talk. At least I think you are referring to Generac, right? I ask because we have a couple of these at work. One is okay and the other is a bit wiggy but that is because the nitwit engineer spec'd the wrong transfer switch. The first on is an air cooled, natural gas model with a 60amp, two pole breaker (15Kw I think) that powers the emergency lighting in one of our dorms. It is a stopgap replacement unit that just powers stair lights, a couple of hall lights per floor, and some emergency and exits lights. Normally our dorms are fitted with large, diesel 480/277v three phase gensets upon remodeling. This dorm is still on the list. The unit works okay but I do know there was a problem with the transfer switch. This was installed in house about six years ago. It certainly is a residential type unit. It came with a transfer switch/panel that contain Square D Homeline breakers. It suffices for the purpose but we do run tests once a week and load tests once a month.
The other is a Generac with a small liquid cooled engine and slightly larger capacity. It has had a number of issues. The funniest and most costly was the transfer switch. The genius engineer/architect spec'd a transfer switch that must have cost thirty thousand dollars. It stands eight feet tall, is rated for God knows how much wattage, and is completely oversized for what it is used for. It was useless for over a year. You see, the building is 208/120v and the transfer switch looks for this voltage when it senses power loss. The damned thing would not transfer over to generator because is saw the 240v as an overvoltage condition and would not allow the transfer. Nice for a new, 6.6 million dollar dorm eh? The solution was to add a buck down transformer to send a 208v signal so the transfer switch thinks it is getting the right voltage. Brilliant. I swear, that transfer switch is the most over built thing I have ever seen. Of course the dumb heifer who designed the building's electrical system also spec'd and demanded three wire dryer receptacles. Nothing wrong with that except they have been coded out in favour of four wire receps for nearly twenty years. The contractor even argued to no avail. Of course they failed final inspection and punch ticket list.
Okay, after all that, what brand of genset would you recommend for my mom's rural residence fed by LP gas?
Todd
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Post by franz on Jun 25, 2010 23:11:35 GMT -5
Onan and Kohler are both damn good machines.
Around here both seem to a be a drug on the Craigslist market. If I didn't have to go to a wedding tomorrow I'd be looking at a 50kva machine, 3Ø machine that is advertised for $350. Damn fool claims it came out of a school 3 years ago in operating condition and now won't rotate.
We've had a lot of sufficient machines replaced in schools around here because aid money was available and "educated" engineers get suppliers to do all the drawings ands specs for a new bigger machine.
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